Dr. Anil Menon is an incredible testament to the power of resilience and the human spirit. He launched the first humans into space as SpaceX’s first medical director, served as first responder after the earthquakes in Haiti and Nepal, and fulfilled his childhood dream of becoming an astronaut.
Hear Anil’s incredible story and learn how you, too, can develop more strength, wisdom and resilience in the face of life’s most challenging setbacks.
Full Episode Transcript:
Anil: I would have given myself a 0 percent chance of becoming an astronaut then. But I, I didn’t give up. I continued to believe that I might not see the pathway, but it might happen. And so I just kept working at it. And at any point had I given up, I wouldn’t be here, in the face of pretty unlikely odds
Todd: Welcome everybody to what’s going to be a fascinating and wisdom filled episode of Untapped, where our main focus for this conversation will be how to amplify resilience and mental strength so we can each move closer to living the life of our dreams.
And our guest today is Dr. Anil Menon, a NASA astronaut, among some other amazing things. And my sense is that this man knows a little bit about how to harness mental strength to create an extraordinary life. Okay so that’s why we’re here. And as always, I’m sitting next to my amazing business partner and co host Lauren Weinstein, and we’ve been looking forward to this one for some time.
And I recommend that you get out a notepad and jot some things down as they occur to you. Our goal with Untapped is that these conversations spur real ideas in your mind and in your heart. So that way you can go out there and be inspired to make changes and improvements as you need to in your life. And our underlying premise is that we each have way more potential than is currently being expressed.
And building more mental strength and learning how to harness resilience is a powerful lever that we can always be getting better at. Okay, so I want to officially welcome Dr. Anil Menon into this conversation, and he was selected by NASA to join their astronaut candidate class in 2021, being one of six men and four women from a pool of about 12, 000 applicants.
So that means he had less than a 0.1 percent chance of being selected. He was also SpaceX’s first flight surgeon, helping to launch its first humans into space, while also building out a medical organization to support the human system during future missions. And as a physician, he was a first responder during the 2010 earthquake in Haiti, the 2015 earthquake in Nepal, and many other global events.
And someone who truly represents the power of having a dream, of having persistence. And being grateful along the way. So with that said, and Anil, it’s an honor to have you with us here today.
Anil: Oh, it’s my honor. I’m super excited to talk to you all. So thanks for having me and yeah, it’s a cool looking forward to the conversation.
Lauren: Yeah, so wonderful to have you with us. I’ve known Anil and his wife, Anna, for years now, and I wanted to share that while his external accomplishments are extraordinary, he’s just as impressive on the inside and just an incredibly kind, thoughtful, and lovely human. So very happy to have you with us.
So to kick us off, you’re one of the rare examples of someone who had really a high in the sky childhood dream to be a NASA astronaut and was able to achieve it. And, yesterday I was reading an interview where you said that as a kid, you knew it was a highly unlikely dream, like becoming president, but here we are, you’ve accomplished your dream.
What qualities about yourself would you say help make this dream come true?
Anil: Yeah, it started a long time ago and there’s a few things that kind of helped me stick with it in going after it. And I’ll just share those with you. One of them was just to , draw inspiration from other folks around me, your type of podcast and, just continually hearing things and figuring out things that fit into my life.
But, I fell in love with space. I grew up in Minnesota, so I loved adventure and just being outside. And at that moment I thought this is a job where I can do adventure and do something really exciting. And something just inspired me about space. It was just pushing into the unknown, pushing ourselves forward.
I think as a kid, it’s one of those, awe inspiring things. And I used to go to the Minnesota Science Museum and really just love that stuff, love science fiction. And I stuck with it for a while. I, oddly enough, I did recognize as a kid that it was a, like an aspirational dream.
And I kept it in that bucket for a while, but always just did things that aligned with it. And it wasn’t until college that I began thinking, what do I want to do with my life and where do I want to apply my energy over the next couple of decades so that I can make an impact, that I enjoy it.
And I, can help people along the way and I like medicine. And that’s part of the reason I went that way. And back then, this was, around the year 2000 when I graduated, I did not have the same resources you have now in terms of just figuring out pathways out there. So I think one of the big things that helped me get here was just pushing myself in the right direction, just starting to move. You could do a lot of analysis and think about all the ways in which you could fail, and all the challenges.
And there wasn’t any clarity of how you become an astronaut really. There was a few doctors that did it so I could look at their bios. I didn’t have any friends that were in the military or, flying planes or knew anything about NASA. So the best I could do or I couldn’t even email people really about it.
And so it was hard to find out information. So I just started moving in a direction that felt right. And towards that general light or goal that I had. So, my advice there is just like just taking a couple steps in the right direction is better than sometimes just sitting and, thinking about it too long.
And what that meant for me was going to medical school, doing something I loved, which was, helping people and learning about emergency medicine. And then, how do you take medicine and you make it part of the space kind of direction. And for me, that was to learn from people in the military.
So I, I joined the Air National Guard, was able to do medicine, work in the backseat of a, , F 15, and learn from pilots and then work in a C 17, which is a big cargo plane. And we would take patients that were ICU level patients, like gunshot wounds and, needed a ventilator and take care of them in the air as we brought them to the U.S. for care. And that was real medicine in an aviation environment. And it wasn’t space, but it was in the direction of space. So that was the big thing that eventually got me over to NASA. I’d say that the next big thing that I did was just be willing to take some risks, when there was really no guarantee or clear outcome, you could call it faith or taking risks.
But I was at NASA, had a good job. Was doing something very similar to what I like doing. but I was married, which was wonderful. I had a six month old kid, and also worked in the ER. My wife had a great job and this job popped up at SpaceX, to be a doctor there and commercial world hadn’t hired a ton of doctors.
This was the first job at SpaceX. There was some someone at Virgin Galactic at the time, but it wasn’t like a big field. And it was a big risk. It would potentially mean, we knew that there was a good chance I could lose my job within a year or something wasn’t stable. And Houston was just such a comfortable community for us at the time.
So to take that job would have been a huge, huge challenge and risk. And it took a lot of consideration, but my wife and I decided to make that jump and it was huge. I had applied to the astronaut program at that time four times and hadn’t got in. So there was also this other element that door felt like it was closing and I had to do a lot of introspection and thought about the direction that I would go.
And so just not giving up. Sometimes these risks and this, the pathway towards that aren’t easy, and this was not easy. Just doing the cultural transformation of working there from being a doctor at NASA was a huge, self transformation. It was uncomfortable at times, but absolutely critical to being successful there.
And the whole way, it seemed like there was a lot of, impossibility. Like I would have given myself a 0 percent chance of becoming an astronaut then. But I, I didn’t give up. I continued to believe that I might not see the pathway, but it might happen. And so I just kept working at it.
And at any point had I given up, I wouldn’t be here, in the face of pretty unlikely odds. So those would probably be the three biggest things that have helped me get here.
Lauren: Thank you. Thank you. So many gems in what you just shared that story. really, what you’re saying is do what you love, right?
You’re also saying work hard at it. And even if the path isn’t clear, just start taking steps in the right direction. Like action in some direction is better than no action at all. This bias to action and then to keep going in the face of failure, or disappointment. So having applied four times to be an astronaut candidate rejected, but you kept going and you kept faith, like belief that it’s possible is also huge, I would say.
And what I find fascinating about what you just shared is, Todd and I have studied the most successful people on the planet, not only successful, but also truly fulfilled, like love what they do, purpose filled. I happened to be in the audience when Steve Jobs gave his commencement speech.
Anil: Yeah. At Stanford. Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. Were you there as well? I was, I was not there,
Anil: but I have watched it on YouTube because it is an inspiring speech. One of the better ones I’ve ever heard.
Lauren: It’s incredible. And so really his advice and his story is very similar to yours in that he found what he loved. He believed like so much was possible.
He worked hard, he kept at it, fired from Apple, but still loved what he did. Right? And kept going and just had faith that it would work out. So as a follow up to that, I’m curious, how important is it that we find what we love? Like, where does that come into your story? Like that inner fire or enjoying what you do that helped you with that resilience and accomplishment in the end?
Anil: Those are good overarching summaries and good things to think about, but there is a process to executing on them, like, what are the little things you do to not give up? What are the little things you do to find the thing you love that’s like where the details and work is, that I’ve discovered.
One of the things is finding what I love. I realized when I was six, I would love to be an astronaut, but I think there was a point where I had applied to be an astronaut four times. I didn’t get it. I was doing aerospace medicine and a comfortable job at NASA. I felt like I was it like, was I really passionate about it?
I had to reevaluate that. To see what my drivers were at age 40 and I’ve done this before at earlier ages looking back, but at age 40, I was really deliberate about it. And I basically journaled every day and tried to write out just one sentence or two sentences about what it was that my why or my love.
And did I really want to do aerospace medicine and commit the next decade of my life to that because I had the option to change luckily or and I and ultimately I , with a lot of work and maybe over the course of three months and like doing this on a daily basis for a decent amount of time, I came to the conclusion that it was space medicine, that I was really passionate about and I’d be willing to commit 10 years of my life and
a big chunk of family time and, a big direction here that drives a lot of impacts to those around me to this effort and talked about it with my wife and I think that’s what allowed us to say that this risk of taking this new job was worth it. Because it was so clear, after all that work that this is the way I wanted to go.
And when the going got tough at various times, it was, easier to just keep going because I knew this was what I should be doing. I don’t think if I had that, I would be able to make it. And I think, like you said, you draw inspiration from other people and I’ve certainly seen folks that, have made it through real challenges like, interact with a lot of the special operators in the military and they always have a clear why the ones who are able to make it through some of those challenges.
And that’s what kind of buoys folks in those times when it really gets tough. So I think they’re additive and the steps that it took were these little things like journaling on a daily basis and things to really nail it down.
Todd: And actually I want to follow up on that because it’s so, Relevant to what we Lauren and I keep talking about, which is people need to have more clarity about their why.
So that way that’s infused into the daily motivation and the daily inspiration and use to overcome the obstacles that inevitably show up, right? So you mentioned journaling. What other things did you do to fully substantiate and get clear on your wives? I think a lot of people out there that we work with and coach
have a problem getting so clear on that why. Maybe they’re even afraid to ask that big question or something that hasn’t even occurred to them. So what other techniques, if any, , did you speak to other people? What other things can we do to get really clear on that
why? So that way we have that linchpin within us, within our body, our mind, our heart. That will be used as a lever to keep us moving forward.
Anil: Yeah. Good question. I’m one of those people that’s willing to try anything. I will, it seems like a good idea, I’ll try it because, often the risk of, is very low of not succeeding.
You could try journaling for a month. What are you going to lose at the end? Maybe 15 minutes a day. We certainly have that time. So I, I experimented with a bunch of different things. I found that answering questions, and that’s like journaling, but you could do it in conversation with other folks.
And I’m not unique. We’re not unique in this a lot of people face these challenges. So there’s some powerful questions out there and people who talk to you or know you well, like a mentor, and a good one can help like probe those things. So I found that to be really powerful in my case, I was doing some of this stuff just alone, on a regular basis.
In terms of journaling, like one example is I remember writing what my obituary would look like when I, eventually die. And it helped clarify, what I wanted to leave the world with, leave what impression impact
I wanted to leave. But things like that. And there’s a bunch of them. And those helped, for me, meditation and prayer are big things. Just finding some time to listen to myself. There’s this intuitive component, that gets unlocked. But I think in the busyness of work days, it’s hard to connect with that.
But if I make the time for myself, it becomes a little more clear and I can listen to those feelings. I’ve certainly had times in my life where I’ve taken a job and then my gut. Like my stomach hurt. I look back. It was like, Oh, that was the wrong way to go. I didn’t listen to myself. There, there are these strange things that your body and intuition communicates with you.
And so I think just being open and listening to that, so I could see that also being like, just some time with nature or, time away from our devices and everyday life being important.
Todd: I love the, when you mentioned the obituary, it’s funny. One of the main practices that I do in coaching is I have people do that.
I have them write. Their own eulogy, cause that talk about like getting the big why out, like, why are we here? And actually the practice of writing it out and doing it from the perspective of someone else that’s writing about you as if you’ve lived this glorious, amazing life is very enlightening and freeing mentally, because you actually give yourself the space, which we don’t often do to actually think about, well, what happens if my life is absolutely extraordinary and things play out in a really wonderful way?
And that tends to set some mental linchpin that we can then work towards. So I love that you, you did that. And so I love going down a little bit deeper on this because, you mentioned before the rubber meeting the road, like the real things that actually happened along the way. I’m guessing that you’ve experienced some failure and disappointment along the way.
You mentioned you, applied to be an astronaut four times and it didn’t work out. Let’s talk about that for a moment, like, how do you deal with disappointment and failure? I mean, does it ever fully derail you?
What is your approach? What is your strategy for dealing with failure or disappointment?
Anil: Yeah, I think for me, it’s, I definitely am not like just so positive that it’s just a speed bump for me. I feel like maybe middle of the road. I think I was incredibly disappointed when I didn’t get the astronaut.
Oh man, I had come very close. I had these, it’s easier when you don’t get it right of you, like the last interview and didn’t get it. And I felt like I had come so close and it was easy to pick apart my interview and say, maybe if I had said this, it would be different. So it was easy to perseverate on, aspects of the failure.
Yeah, like that sadness and processing through it at that, later in life, I was smart enough and emotionally intelligent enough to be able to talk with friends and my wife and help let out and just like, live through it, that experience a little bit. I think, Emerson who just said like the only way out sometimes is through and sometimes it’s just you just gotta when they’re big failures like that just absorb them and process it a bit.
And then on the flip side, reframing it is definitely helpful. It’s hard to do. But often there’s great lessons in it that are really hard to see. I will try to be proactive about reframing stuff myself and it’s got to be genuine for my intuitive self to believe in it really.
And then redirecting to a new goal and direction with what I’ve learned and so what that meant for me was just like focusing on what’s next and how could I do better at that and being open to the fact that when one door closes, others open and looking for those in this case, it was SpaceX and, big disappointment. For me, it was processing it. It was then, reframing and getting the good lessons I could out of it, and then redirecting to a new goal, were the important key steps there.
And for me in this particular case, that was taking this risk, going to SpaceX, and just starting out in a new career. What ended up happening there is that had all these unforeseen opportunities. My wife ended up becoming a mission director and her dream, her whole life was to be a flight director, which is very similar.
And so these unforeseen positive impacts of people around me. So it’s not always just my story. That’s the center of this it’s the other people that are affected and benefit from it. And had she not have gone there, she would have never, she got, an opportunity to fly to space. She wouldn’t have had that opportunity had we not have gone there.
And so I think those are the things that are, have been super important. And that, that speaks to some of these things that when you’re pursuing a very hard to, pursuing a dream like this and it gets hard. You just never know the route that leads there. Like she would have never thought for her that would be the pathway that led her there. And these things are also important just in the short time span, like being an astronaut at NASA. One of the great things of being a NASA astronaut is they, you get to work with all these other astronauts and you figure out what their keys to success are.
And one of the things that really stuck with me that I heard is when you have a problem, you only have like 0.1 seconds to think about it and you got to move on. So there are some instances where, where you get like a shorter time span to mourn, and then you got to like execute for the whole team.
And it’s about the bigger team that needs to succeed. And that, that helps to move on too, is just not thinking about myself with the bigger team that, and the bigger effort that we’re trying to undertake.
Lauren: Thank you. Once again, so many gems and what you just shared and what I’m appreciating and really all of your responses is that there’s almost a formula to be able to hit that sweet spot of high success and high fulfillment.
So in this case, you mentioned disappointment happens, and then there’s a really healthy emotional processing of it, like not resisting it, allowing it, I’m disappointed. You work through those emotions. Then you said, okay, what did I learn? Right. There’s a learning. You saw the positive and then what’s the opportunity here?
Like what’s next? Where do I go from here? Really that acceptance piece. And I also love what you shared around like this, like good thing, bad thing. Who knows, right? Like you, one person can say this is bad, but you could say a setback is just a set up. Right for something else for a new opportunity. So you were saying had you just been selected right away, you would have missed out on the SpaceX opportunity, which led to so much and you learn from so many others and Anna got you know her dream job and all these other things unfolded from that, that rerouting that redirection, the nonlinear.
Which, going back to Steve Jobs is exactly what he would have said, like his detour to Pixar allowed him to create, Apple 2. 0 and what made that so exceptional and everything he learned. And so really being able to not get so attached and accept, okay, maybe it’s a setback, but maybe there’s something even better because of that setback and really allowing that.
And so the follow up question is, I’m curious, so you mentioned applied four times. And then got it on this fifth time. Is it, was it just like, what was the unlock for you? Did you, did you have an aha moment? Like, was there something different that unlocked that final success for you? What would you say the difference was on that fifth try?
Anil: I think, yeah, I think I had an, unlock moment or at least I, I think it was, and I think what it was, really a sense of believing, like truly believing in myself. There’s this Sun Tzu quote I like that says the victorious warrior wins in his mind and then goes to war and the defeated warrior goes to war and then tries to win.
And I think I really internalized that by the time that I was applying the second time and I thought, well, I’m going to go for this. Not gonna give up, but it seems like completely improbable because now I’m older, and I’ve been unsuccessful before, but I’m going to believe that this is something I can do.
And I think before, I don’t know that I always thought I always carried this, the probabilities. Like this is so improbable, but I had the opportunity over the past two years to work on several projects that were totally impossible and had been successful at them by just those same skills. And so I had a little more confidence in terms of you can take on these impossible things and succeed.
And the first step is winning in your mind or believing you can do it. And, and I think that was, like laser sharp for this time and what did that do that really caused me to take like other supporting actions like practice for my interview more because it’s going to like I can do it. I just need to pull the pieces together and and show up in a way that is positive and reflects that this is definitely a job I, can capable of doing.
And I think it sets you up in this indirect way with a lot of different little facets that help you towards that goal.
Lauren: I just wanted to add to that. When you also you hear people that have miraculous health healings, often what they had in common is they believed that they could heal.
Even when people said, this is impossible, it’s terminal. Like they had that belief that they could get better. And then like you said, they did everything they could. They got the support they needed that led to that healing. So often I just heard, I just like just heard this quote a couple of days ago, uh, impossible is just an opinion.
It’s not a fact.
Anil: Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I, I, yeah, I love that. And being a doctor, like, definitely, there, there probably is even some mechanisms that we don’t understand that is related to, like, the way you frame things. Probably adds to your health. I would say one small nuance here. Um, I was reading some books and heard Kate Bauer talk out of Duke and, and she wrote this book, um, called “Everything Happens for a Reason: And Other Lies I’ve Loved” but it’s a really interesting book.
And the, the, the, the, premise is that sometimes when people have the bad thing happen to them, like they don’t get the astronaut interview or they find out they have a really bad diagnosis, and you probably know this as coaches, but it probably doesn’t help them to, to tell them about this whole arc in that, you know, like, hey, think that the bright side, um, they do need to go through that.
And I needed to go through that initial phase of just like making it through that. But I just wanted to mention that because I think in Earlier in life as a doctor, I wasn’t as aware of that, that nuance of what people need, but,
Todd: Well, I think you also represented that and abided it in terms of when you mentioned, we asked you about like being disappointed or failure, you, you were very honest, right?
Like, yeah, like I, I, I had these moments, you know, and I’m not going to sugarcoat it, you know, it was hard. Right. And so I think that is just part of the process of being human. I think sometimes in my experience, a lot of it is about. Being self aware of the process, which enables us to go through the process faster, so that way we can experience the, the fruits and the rewards, um, that do lay on the other side of when we just understand that this isn’t a linear game per se, but if we’re committed and we have clarity over the long term, and we have commitment, you know, to doing the work, right, we know we’re going to go through some ups and downs, but I can go through it faster if I have that awareness and I have that support and I do the things that I need to do to get there.
So I’m guessing you kind of agree with that.
Anil: Absolutely. I love the words commitment to it because it isn’t super easy all the time. And, uh, and also just the self awareness is a huge part. And I think that’s where some of those, those meditative processes are talking to mentors or coaches like you really help folks.
Todd: Yeah, let me ask you this as a follow up question, slightly different, but, um, I read, uh, an interview that you had done, which talks about just being an astronaut and what you do. It’s like, it really is a lot about collaboration and working with other people. You all cannot do this by yourself, right? Like, it, it takes teams and big teams of people to be able to work.
And so you were talking about how, Yeah. Like really understanding how to work with others because a lot of what we’ve been talking about now is about ourselves and how to deal with our own perceptions and our own process. But I’m curious in terms of how that gets played out in the real world, like when there’s differing opinions or we have conflict, we need to have a challenging conversation or something in that realm.
How, how do you think about going through that process when you’re dealing with others, they may not be exactly on the same page as you.
Anil: Yeah, I mean that I would say the last two years of astronaut training The most important part is really focused on that and the different skills that it takes to get there, and such a powerful thing and I’m so glad to learn in this community here about that.
That’s probably like a full on two hour podcast but I’ll show you how important it is one Our class mentor, Shannon Walker, who’s an experienced space flyer, uh, tons of time in space and is the deputy chief of the office. She had a, like a performance review and there’s a couple big things we focus on, which are language, robotics,
spacewalking, flying, and the space station. And I asked her which one of those five should I really pay attention to, to get good at, if I could bias towards one of them. And her answer was essentially like none of the above, well, all of the above, but what you should be focusing on is teamwork. Like that’s the, that’s the number one thing.
And I was like, Oh, Okay, I see. And it’s really borne out to be true here. And so I, I think we’ve done a lot within the astronaut office so everyone’s kind of using a common language and understanding this. But nonetheless, you run into some conflicts and issues. And the key is, like you said, a commitment to working it out and seeking a better resolution.
And there’s a lot that goes into that. It’s really just giving the other person like the benefit of the doubt sometimes that you assume positive intent and a lot of times that is true. Being willing to have a very uncomfortable conversation with somebody and clarify something that’s bothering you even if it’s you have a really well working team It’s been very helpful to sit down and say hey, there was this one comment you said and , the story I’m telling myself about this comment is this and bringing it up and, learning to just have those conversations, because there’s a lot of times that it’s just hard to bring those, those things up.
I can think of someone that I was working with that I felt like we were just always clashing on, things on a work project. And I just scheduled a lunch meeting and said, hey, let’s, uh, let’s talk about this. And it didn’t feel comfortable to bring up the subject, but I called out what I was seeing. And we just saw things a different way.
And I figured out what this person needed and what I needed to adapt to. And that was the key to kind of breaking open a good path forward. And, we got to a spot where we would say we’re great friends, you know, and it was just like 180. I think it takes time. It takes some vulnerability. It takes, a willingness to, kind of go there.
That’s not common, but it’s very functional at work and, and other relationships.
Lauren: Yeah, I love what you just ended with with other relationships because it’s work, it’s partners, right? It’s family. I’m curious, like so much of what we’ve been talking about today is really your mindset. So you did have this uncomfortable conversation, like what was your mindset going into that?
It sounds like understanding what’s this person needing? Like how do you think about when we are clashing with someone, whether that’s personal or professional, like how are you setting yourself up mentally and emotionally? And then what are the actions you’re taking to create resolution?
Anil: Yeah, for that particular conversation, if I was using that as a guide post, I think, and it is generalizable.
I definitely want to recognize the fact that I am making up some sort of story about the interactions and it may or may not be true and honesty. So I’m a huge proponent of just trying to express what I’m feeling, because that is always right. And, it may not be what I should be doing, but, it is a genuine response and just putting it out there and sharing that and then just listening, being able to like be open to, sometimes uncomfortable feedback.
So I think what, what’s helped is some of these other things we talked about, like the, the never give up and all that stuff and mental toughness, but there’s like this mental toughness that’s extreme about just having emotional conversations, right? They’re easy to avoid. You could go on working for a year, maybe, without confrontation, but it isn’t optimal, you could take this risk and bring this stuff up And it will be uncomfortable. And you don’t for sure know the outcome, but like, like these other things in life, it’s, it’s, it was trying to do the right thing and I think people, or at least in these interact and I’d say most, almost a hundred percent of the interactions, people have recognized that and said, okay, maybe this guy’s trying to do the right thing, sharing and, and, and listening, and it.
Leads to a good outcome has been my experience.
Todd: Yeah. I mean, this is, uh, obviously it could be a two hour part of it, but, um, I just kind of hear the open mindedness and kind of humility and dealing with other people, which I think really is at the core of how we connect, um, which is something that Lauren and I just love coaching on. I want to ask you another question, because I have you on the phone. I got you on this call and you’re an astronaut. And I think we all want to know about your habits, your routines, like, like, do you have power habits or routines that set you up right to have this more powerful or resilient mindset? Like, are there things that you do physically every day?
I mean, you’ve mentioned meditation and some of those types of practices, but maybe just dive a little bit deeper into it. Yeah. Some of the things that you go to, right, that that help you set up, uh, to, um, really have this level of mental strength and kind of go forward. Everyday attitude.
Anil: Yeah, I think you mentioned the word habits and so I think habit creation is a big component of that. I, I really like push it. I like learning things. So I always keep an open mind. Like I’ll listen to podcasts, read books and notice like, oh, that, that sounds like a good way to go about something. And so I read about someone who had a morning routine and I just integrated that into my daily flow. And then just started tweaking it into something that worked really well for me. And so, you know, I will constantly integrate things and just tweak them and then, as is life, things just fall out too, but I’ll, I’ll like write them down and try to remember it. So my, my habit looks like wake up, meditate for 30 minutes as a goal.
And then have like a kind of breakfast morning routine and spend some time with the kids and then head into work. I think that has set me up pretty well. I’ve experimented with just working out right away. I’ve experimented with, doing some work right away. So I’ve certainly tried a lot of, different strategies in that regard.
And wound up with that as a big habit. I do keep journaling as a part of it. And I have like some fixed, really easy questions to answer. And if I have time at the end, some like summaries, just like, what am I grateful for, who can I help today? What’s my purpose? What’s my intent. And, and then just, I love to learn new things. So I have like, write down a few things that I’ll just try to remember, and then look at the next day and see if I can kind of keep them, whether they’re Russian words or, or things I learned about space and space stations. So those are, it’s kind of like a broad brushstroke of, of some of the habits that are really important.
And then there’s, there’s specific like sets of things that I just click in. If it, if it’s something really tough, I’ve, I’ve found that. I seek out some physical challenges because they’re crucibles sometimes to, train mental toughness, and some of those skills. And so I will just keep working on like, what are the things that helped me get through these really tough
physical challenges and then use those things when I feel myself being challenged in other areas as habits. So those are like modular things that I can click in. If I’m doing a spacewalk training and it’s really physically challenging, which it is, and you’re fighting against this 4. 5 pressure suit and it’s six hours long and you haven’t eaten, like, that’s when I’ll kick in some things that help, like positive self talk, like just feeling a particular sense to bring me into the present moment and, uh, and, uh, be aware of my breathing, those kind of things.
Lauren: I personally have also found I’ve experimented with different morning routines, but meditation first thing in the morning, I’ve also found to be the most powerful. And I’m curious when we first began our conversation, you mentioned prayer, which is something I didn’t connect with until recently, even the last month.
And I found it really powerful. And it’s something that even in the personal growth world, we don’t talk about a lot. And I I’d love to hear more about your relationship to prayer, because I do think that’s a really powerful practice.
Anil: For me, it’s just connecting with something bigger than myself and the unknown and I recognize in medicine that there’s a lot we know and can do, but there’s a lot we don’t know. And then I certainly look to others for advice all the time.
And I think for prayers to connect with something that we, the mystery that we’ve all kind of collectively shared, for quite some time. And there, and it’s, it’s something that a language and mode of communication that helps me understand way beyond my understanding. And so, um, I think I, what I’ve noticed is that I’m at my best when I can center myself around that perspective.
That’s just a lot bigger than myself. Usually that manifests as being able to help and focus my energies towards others more. You know, we talk about the obituary thing we mentioned, but it’s not, you know, if it was up to me, it wouldn’t say flew to space or, you know, became an astronaut or overcame these challenges.
It would be something that was more meaningful to people around me and my community and society, you know, to have a bigger impact on other folks. And that could be through medicine, because it’s so obvious sometimes how you can impact others. But I’ve actually seen just the meek will impact being able to work as an astronaut at NASA and see people get inspired
and pursue their passions and get into science and, get kids fired up. So, I think that’s what’s, that’s what it helps me do.
Todd: Yeah. And like, but I’m listening to you, you know, because when, when you read your bio, right, um, it’s just like one of those buys, you’re like, wow, okay. Like this guy, just everything he touches turns to gold.
Like, I want my life to be that way. Right. Like, it’s just. It’s probably just so perfect and easy and everything just flows. And we tend to have that idea about others, right? When we see them, you know, online or on TV, or we read their bio, but when we get on the phone with you, or someone like you, but really you right now, I mean, the qualities that I really feel are
a very open mindedness, right? Very curious, you know, really willingness to learn. Um, I really feel a lot of like, um, humbleness also just kind of like, well, you know, I’m just, I’m trying my best. I do have a vision. I’ve done the work to kind of have a vision, but like, I, I know that the moments, you know, can, um, require toughness and it’s not always perfect.
And I’m kind of humbled by that moment. It’s just, it’s kind of what I’m feeling from you right now. And also, just an experimental mindset, right? Like when I asked you about your routines, it’s like, you just kind of assimilate things in the moment and you play with it and not really getting stuck onto one thing, having to be the thing that gives you the big nugget.
It really feels more of like you’re constantly learning and constantly growing and constantly open, you know, and there’s bumps along the way, but you just keep moving forward in that. Uh, and then also really bringing yourself back into presence when you’re in a difficult situation, which as an astronaut and in training, you get into often, right?
So bringing yourself, having those practices, then play out in a difficult moment where you can breathe, you know, in the space suit when you have that degree of pressure on you, right? So I just love being here with you. And again, just feel so honored, right? You know, that you’re talking to us because It just shows that we’re all human, right?
And we’re all trying our best. Uh, and if we have that attitude, which is you’re representing, that’s really where the juice comes. That’s where we do get these big results. And so I’m just curious when somebody comes to you, right. And, and they ask you like, man, I’m, I’m, I’m really trying. I’ve done a lot of things.
I had my dream, but it hasn’t come true. Or they’re feeling that disappointment in general, like meaning that they’re not getting the results as they would perceive someone like you is getting. Um, and they’re just like feeling like they hit that wall and they’re just like not breaking through and they haven’t had that success in whatever area of life they want it.
What do you say to them? How would you coach somebody? Uh, you know, I know you’re not a coach, but like, how would you speak to someone that’s feeling that?
Anil: Yeah, I think I guess it would depend where they are because I think I would recognize the challenge and and failure of things not working, and, and maybe that’s where they’re at.
And that’s where we could just spend some time and let that soak in. And, and work through that, uh, cause yeah, I’ve totally been there and thanks for those kinds of things you said. But if I were to put an advertisement for like what I’ve been able to do, it’d be no talent required.
Like just like a lot of this stuff is, is just being willing to put in a decent amount of, of work at it, uh, and being a bit open minded. So then I would start to explore if someone was open to it, some of those next steps and pathways. Like start asking some questions about what’s disappointing, where did they want to go and, and kind of look just a little bit beyond the, the, the next step that we could take together.
And what are some things that would strengthen that foundation of doing that? It’s a general case, maybe it means just practicing a bit for the next interview and thinking about some experimental strategies, like, hey, talking to a coach, have you read a book?
Have you done the things that work for that person, you know, or maybe it’s athletic related, or just thinking about the things that didn’t work and how to shore some of those things up and have fun doing it, because it’s an opportunity to grow. When I got here it was wonderful and super grateful for it, but it wasn’t like the end of the journey.
It was just, still kind of doing those same things and looking forward to The future and growing and finding new ways forward and failing at it along the way. So I don’t know, how does that stack up to your coaching skills?
Todd: I mean, you know, it’s why we’re doing this podcast is to like understand like the mental makeup, the mental mindset. Right. I think so many gems in this call, but like one of the things you said before is like, how much the mental prep sets us up like the fifth time you applied for becoming an astronaut was the time you made it and Lauren asked that question, like, what was the difference?
And you said, well, It’s, I would, I just felt, I felt ready. I felt different on the internal, right. And I think that’s why we’re all here is to figure out, well, how can we capture that feeling, that lightning in a bottle more, right. So we can experience and flow through life with more success, more abundance, more ease, even while knowing there’s going to be bumps along the way.
So I think it stacks up perfectly.
Anil: Yeah. And I think he said that word flow, which just triggered me that sometimes it is just, it’s like surfing a wave, right? Um, you. You don’t always have it all the time, but you’re, you’re constantly trying to stay on the wave and enjoy it while you’re there. Uh, maybe there’s a component of that.
Cause like I said, I’m, I’m still failing at things and feel like I’m messing things up and trying to get better and asking these mentors for advice and learning from you all and podcasts and people out there. So it just never stops.
Lauren: Yeah, actually, what you’re saying right now reminds me of a conversation with a client.
She came to me for career coaching. And she’s like, what is my craft? I don’t know what it is. And while we did talk about that and help her get more clarity, I also shared like life is the craft, right? And so I love what you just shared around you’re like, yes, I was selected as an astronaut candidate, but it’s not like, okay the end, like top of the mountain, you’re like, and then life, like the craft of life, the game of life continues and what’s next and you’re continually learning and growing. There’s no final destination. so I think that zoomed out perspective is really helpful. Like it’s really just life and your work and relationships are just opportunities to continually uplevel yourself.
Anil: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
You know, this is Kobe Bryant quote that I love. It’s just, he always says like, get 1% better every day. You know, like when people ask, how’d you get so good at basketball? And it’s so true. And it’s fun, actually.
Lauren: Yeah, you make it, um, if it is, it’s just a little bit every day.
And that does. compound. And a lot of what you’re sharing is the big unlock for me in my life. Like one was around, I used to say, I can’t, and then just started asking, like, how could I? Right? I think that open mindedness that we lose. I talk about, we have this as children, like, it’s always asking, like, well, how could I do this?
How might this happen? Rather than shutting ourselves down before we even allow ourselves to really explore, how could I repair this relationship? Or how could I achieve this job of my dreams? Right? So I think that open mindedness that Todd mentioned is so important. And I think what also strikes me about you and everyone else that we’ve studied that’s really successful um, I’ll, you know, Brene Brown is an example. Like she shares her biggest unlock was this willingness to be uncomfortable, this willingness to be vulnerable. And you’ve shared many instances of, I had this very comfortable job. At NASA, but I left it for SpaceX and then I had this really uncomfortable encounter with my, you know, team member, but I was willing to be uncomfortable and, and voice what I was feeling and what was coming up.
So I also think a theme throughout your life has been comfort was discomfort or a willingness to be uncomfortable. Uh, I’d actually, I love if you could share a little bit more about that, because I think what I found in, you know, all my years of doing this, one of the things that holds us back the most is like clinging to comfort or a willingness to be uncomfortable.
So yeah, I would love your thoughts
Anil: on that.
Lauren: Yeah.
Anil: Yeah. Well, the, the theory makes perfect sense to me because. If you’re always just doing what’s comfortable, there’s going to be some uncomfortable decisions that might be better decisions for you. And you might pass those up if you just take the comfortable route.
But I think my challenge was getting my brain to a place where those were clear and open to me. Um, and I was always, and how do you, how did I do that? I, I did that. Um, I did that one through, um, just reading a lot. There’s a lot of literature on mental toughness out there and I love to read and read stuff, integrate some habits, but I would try to do some things that were uncomfortable every single day for me.
That meant taking cold showers in the morning and just being uncomfortable. It seems like such a small thing, but it helped shift my brain to just like, hey, today’s not going to be fully exactly what I want or comfortable. And in medicine, it’s such a powerful thing to be uncomfortable. Like I would read about Francis and the CC working with, uh, lepers and it was something he didn’t want to do, but he, he did it.
It was the right thing to do. And that’s a huge example. But in my case, um, it might be, um, Take like doing things at the ER, um, that take a little extra time or, um, aren’t as easy. Uh, or having some of those conversations at work that aren’t as easy, like the examples are out there and, and I would, I would then do, um, use exercise, um, as another opportunity to get uncomfortable.
And, and then at some point, I realized that work was also that for me, the, the pace where I started when I started working at SpaceX, I was the first doctor there. And I remember my boss said, hey, we don’t think we have enough work for you. We’re not sure what you’re supposed to do so be entrepreneurial.
And that was really uncomfortable. I wasn’t used to, not having a clear direction to work in and the pace quickly became super fast. And I was just one person there for quite a long time. And then I remember COVID happened. And the president sent out an email said, hey, we understand everyone’s concern, we have this doctor, his name’s Anil Menon. Here’s his phone number, and here’s his email address. And I looked at my email on Outlook and it was like the New York Times ticker tape, it started just moving fast, you know, and and I couldn’t not respond to people’s emails cause they were about health things.
Like every one of them was important. And I think I had to shift gears at that point to the point that I was probably going to sleep at like 2 AM and waking up at 5 AM, not healthy overall. Um, for sure. I’m not encouraging folks to sleep that little, but it was a time to be, uncomfortable and it was the right decision for the time to give the attention, thought, An effort that was needed there.
Um, and I think like doing all these other things made it easier for me to say, this is, this is intellectually, spiritually, intuitionally, I know this is the way to go, my body doesn’t a hundred percent want to do it, but we’re going to do it and I’m glad I did it. Like now that I look back, I couldn’t have done it any other way.
Todd: Yeah. I love that. And, um, first off we’re going to ask one, Lauren’s going to ask one more question. We’re almost at time here, but it was so grateful. There’s so much gems here. Really hope that you’ve been taking notes while listening. I have, I have a whole slew of notes here for my, my own life. And I think that last piece around the discomfort verse comfort piece is so important.
And it’s almost as if studying a lot of these successful people like yourself. It’s the willingness to go into discomfort and to expand ourselves in that place. Seems to equate to how much success we can have in certain areas, right? So I think for all of us listening, it’s, it’s, it’s okay to experience the discomfort, right?
It’s, it’s actually part of the process. And when we, you know, hear someone like you, we realize, Oh, actually this can go much further. We can expand. Um, you know, and, and it’s all part of the same system. So I just want to thank you before we ask this final question for being here and, um, just really beautiful stuff.
Lauren, we have one final question for Anil. Let’s do it.
Lauren: Yeah. You, you’ve had such a beautiful journey. You’ve learned so much, a lot of trial and error. I’m curious if you could go back and talk to your younger self, so 15 year old Anil, like what would you say to him? What advice would you give him knowing everything, you know, now?
Anil: Oh, yeah. I would say don’t do it alone. Um, they’re like, we live in this world where we have access now to so much help. You know, people can find folks like you, you can find, a book solution or, YouTube, probably just about anything you want to do. But then there wasn’t as much, but there was those resources were out there.
I feel like I would have really accelerated all of this if, you know, if I just remembered to, look for those, be self aware, understand when, where I needed help, and then go and see if I can find it out there in the world through a teacher or book or someone who’s experienced it before. Like, I mean, that’s what I’m doing now is just continually finding things that I need to do. I can grow at and finding help and a way to get there a little bit faster. That’s probably what that’s probably what I would share.
Todd: Love it. It’s such, such wisdom to, to not do it alone. I think we’re all battling the lone wolf syndrome, right.
You know, in terms of like, just in our own little worlds. And when we break out of that, we find, you know, an amplified level of success. Um, so good. I mean, uh, um, you know, it really embodies what we’re trying to do here. This notion that we just have more potential within each one of us. Right. And just having these conversations is inspiring and motivating and everything that you’ve done in your life is just so emblematic of, um, how to live a great life while we’re here. Um, and so, uh, I really appreciate you joining us, Anil, and it’s just been a real honor and a pleasure, uh, getting to know you.
Anil: Awesome. Well, thank, yeah, thanks for the opportunity and I’m happy to answer any
