Perhaps the most important skill in business and relationships is the power to tell a good & clear story.
My friend Gil Rief is a 13-time Emmy-winning writer/producer who served as head writer for The Ellen Show and The Jennifer Hudson Show, and has written for dozens of other A-list hosts, comedians, and celebrities.
He’s overseen the writing of hundreds of monologues, comedy segments, games, tape pieces, and hidden camera bits. In addition, he’s directed sketches/music videos and written songs for Grammy-winning artists including John Legend, Pink, Garth Brooks, Jennifer Hudson, Katy Perry, Maroon 5, Ciara, and more.
Listen to the interview I did with him above and / or read the transcript of the interview below. Super powerful stuff. We cover proven storytelling techniques, how to overcome anxiety when presenting, how to unlock a fearless attitude when you want to create a project and so much more!!
Gil loves writing and producing comedy, performing stand-up, and speaking in the third person when writing his bio. He also loves speaking and consulting for different organizations on the topics of humor, creativity, storytelling, and collaboration.
And a little about me: I love coaching and helping people tell their stories. I’ve worked with some of the most sought after teachers in the world including Tony Robbins, Eckhart Tolle and Deepak Chopra. The most successful people have the ability to tell their stories clearly!!
Full Episode Transcript:
Gil: There’s a lot of research that shows that being in motion, changing scenery, all these things can affect your creativity.
Sometimes I’ll be at a Costco and inspiration strikes because if you’re seeing your surroundings as a way to inspire ideas, I will often just take my phone and do a quick little voice memo so I, capture it and then later I’ll get it into a Google doc or something, but I do find a lot of opportunities to then later use the ideas Welcome everybody into what is going to be a really amazing and powerful episode of Untapped. And again, I am as always joined by my amazing cohost in this journey, Lauren Weinstein, and we’re really excited to have Gil Reif here.
Todd: The topic today is all about unleashing creativity and I don’t think there could be something more relevant than the notion that we all have this immense amount of creativity within us, and how successful and abundant and joyful we are in life is a function of how much we can untap that creativity and have it be in use because we know when we have that feeling of our creativity and our ideas being in play we tend to feel untapped and like our potential is in you. So this is a really really powerful episode and again, Gil Reif is just a perfect guide to this exploration he’s a 13 time Emmy award winning writer and producer.
He works in Hollywood guys Okay, so we got someone like in the heart of creativity here with us today. He, was the head writer for the Ellen show and also the Jennifer Hudson show. So he’s worked with some of these really, really big, successful people. He’s also written, for dozens of other A list hosts, comedians, and celebrities.
He’s directed sketches and music videos, and even written songs for Grammy award winning artists like John Legend and Pink and Garth Brooks and Katy Perry and Maroon 5. So many of these people who we look at and consider to be so creative and the fact that they’ve been able to make their careers and lives about their creativity
it’s so inspiring to us that we can’t wait to dive in with you, Gil, and to learn what you’ve learned and also how you’ve been able to do this as well. So with that, I just want to thank you for being here on the show and welcome to the conversation with Lauren and I.
Gil: Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Good to see everybody.
Lauren: Yeah, I’m personally I thank you so excited for this topic because creativity is something that’s really near and dear to my heart. It was really taking classes on creativity and design thinking that completely transformed my life. And I love this topic because we can often think of creativity as associated with Hollywood and the art.
But really, as I learned, it’s just a way of thinking and living in the world so you can have creative solutions in business in your marriage with your children and so that was a big unlock for me, it’s it’s breaking out of limited thinking and only seeing a few options to you know expanding the possibilities and how it’s asking like how might I solve this problem or how could we put these pieces together to come up
with something even better? I was just looking at the original meaning from Latin means to make something new and valuable or to transform what is into something better. And so, yeah, such a great topic, no matter your industry, professional, personal life. And so the first question we wanted to ask you is you’ve worked with some of the most creative people on the planet, and we’re curious, what would you say they have in common? That we can all learn from.
Gil: I think for all forms of creativity, I think it’s a playful state of mind is pretty key. When I think about, the different people I’ve worked with, whether the writers or the actual hosts of shows.
There’s a, there’s obviously a serious side to trying to produce a show because there’s deadlines and there’s a lot of pressure. But despite all that, you can’t really unlock creativity without a playfulness, and a willingness to see all the different angles and possibilities. And have a light hearted quality where you’re playing with the world and everything around you.
So I think it applies to any industry really, because I think in any space you’re at, there’s a way to make it creative.
Lauren: I love that because I think, to your point, when we get serious and very stressed, like I have to make this work, it puts us in a fight or flight state where we’re anxious, we’re worried, right?
Where our focus narrows and we see fewer possibilities. So even when it is serious, if you take a lightness and really open yourself up to what might we do, how could this work, right? You get in that creative state of mind.
Gil: Yeah.
Lauren: I think that’s kind of like, if you
Gil: think of like a game, if you turn it, the pressure into a game and say, okay, there’s a deadline.
But a game games have deadlines and there’s obstacles. Games have obstacles. So I think you could play with the situation you’re in and find creative solutions despite the pressure. So I think in a way, sometimes the pressure can help unlock creativity. Um, so it’s all kind of your perspective.
Lauren: And so much of what we teach is your state of being is what matters most right if you’re if you’re grounded if you have an open mind that will set you up for better ideas more success.
I’m curious, like how can we prime ourselves, whether we’re trying to solve something with our, our partner or kids at work, how can we put ourselves in a more creative state?
Gil: Yeah. So I think, you know, there’s the stuff you do on the individual level and the group level, and, you know, there’s a number of practices that I’ve, I’ve adopted over the years.
And I know people have similar practices. But I think for one, journaling is a big thing, I think is very useful. Like I’ve found, lately I’ve experimented with a certain type of journaling where, I will actually, keep it by my nightstand. So the first thing I do when I wake up is I reach for the journal rather than my phone.
And I think when you’re in that more dreamlike state and you lose the filter of judging yourself and being overly critical. You can often have some really great insights, right when you wake up. And I think to really add to that practice, what I’ve been doing is the night before, if I’m stuck on something, I will write that prompt into my journal.
Sometimes, it could be something in my personal life, but it can also be something at work I’m trying to solve a certain problem. And I think by priming yourself the night before, I think your mind, your subconscious is actually solving things and you’re forming new connections, new neural connections.
And there’s something really special about writing the second you wake up. And then later I revisit that. And, I think it’s also really important to just capture ideas wherever you go. I’ve always had to, especially in Hollywood, when you start out, you don’t have a desk. You don’t have a, like a real workspace when you’re a production assistant.
You’re just hustling around, but I was still writing jokes and submitting jokes to shows. So I developed a practice of just the ability at the time I didn’t, I don’t think I even had a cell phone at the beginning, and I would literally just be scribbling down notes constantly, but I think it’s so key to harvest all your ideas and collect them.
And then later you can figure out how to sort them. So another thing I suggest is. Having a hub of some way to capture everything. I have a file I call random and I literally, I just timestamp it, and I’ll say, Oh, this is a great game show idea. Oh, this is a funny piece of dialogue for a sitcom.
Oh, this might be a business idea. This might be something I want to do on vacation with my family, but just harvest ideas. Is another, huge way to prime yourself.
Todd: I love it. And, I got the benefit, we got the benefit of talking to Gil before us, and getting some of his ideas. And I will admit that after we talk, before I went to bed that night, I jotted some things down.
Before my dream state before going to sleep. And I really love that tool. Because we’re actually using the way that we work. We’re in fusing some question or inquiry into our subconscious mind and trusting that there’s operation happening in this being that can then produce some result the next day, how powerful of an idea is that?
So thank you for giving me a core practice of mine that I’m going to use moving forward. I really, really love that one. And I also want to just focus on the idea of capture for a minute, because I think this is something that most of us don’t do. And you and I both resonated with, Julie Cameron and her book called the artist’s way. If you guys haven’t read the artist’s way by Julia Cameron, it’s a classic, about creativity and unleashing creativity. And one of the things that she talks about is this practice called morning pages, where you wake up in the morning and you allow yourself the ability to free write and to get all of your ideas, out onto a piece of paper, now I’m gonna be honest, I have a Google document called morning pages that has about 1,800 pages on it. I’ve been using this for years. And I do it constantly. And it gives me the ability just to get my ideas out on a piece of paper without necessarily thinking about it. I don’t have to do anything with it necessarily.
It just is a place for me to express my ideas, my thoughts, my current moment in time. And I think that’s something that you recommend doing, right? There’s a lot of capture, like allowing yourself, giving yourself a place just to express yourself. And I think a lot of us don’t often do that. So I want to check in on that and so if you can give us more context on that, and I’m wondering, how do you think about once you capture and you’re getting it out?
Are you ever doing anything with it? Is it just for the idea of getting this out of you? Or does it come back to some use later on? I’m just curious from your expertise how that usually works with capture.
Gil: Yes. Well, first of all, with capture, so that the morning pages is one aspect of it, but you’re constantly throughout the day, there’s, if I’m driving, let’s say there’s a lot of research that shows that being in motion, changing scenery, all these things can affect your creativity.
Sometimes I’ll be at a Costco and inspiration strikes because if you’re seeing your surroundings as a way to inspire ideas, I will often just take my phone and do a quick little voice memo. So I, capture it and then later I’ll get it into a Google doc or something, but I do find a lot of opportunities to then later use the ideas, admittedly, I’m not the most organized person, but I’ve started to once I capture the idea, I try to label what genre it is at least.
So if I want to do a search. If I was ever, sometimes I will try to develop a game show and I will then search back and look through all these ideas I came up with for funny challenges and other funny concepts to apply. And so I think there’s endless ways to then, tap into all the morning pages, all the stuff you’ve captured, in all areas of your life.
Lots of times I’ll go on a nice like a walk and talk with a friend, and often I get tons of ideas during that so it could be in a collaborative environment or it could be in a very individual personal environment where you’re just going for a walk. And I and the other thing and we mentioned this I mentioned this the other day but I sometimes will literally just scroll through like almost like a slot machine of my previous ideas and see what I land on. Because so much of creativity is randomness. There’s a little spark, a little inspiration. It’s science and art mixed together. Sometimes you just, you see these two ideas, you blend together and it just creates a whole new genre, a whole new thing that could apply in business or personal life.
Todd: Yeah. I wanted to follow up with you on the random piece. Cause, Again, it’s so interesting when we were talking with you about this, right? And by the way, I just love this conversation, right? Cause I think, even for me, like just while creativity is a thing that I can cultivate and develop.
It’s a part of my humanity, to have these new ideas and to have unique ways of solving problems or new business ideas or just new ways of doing things. And so just when we’re on the phone with someone like you, this is what you do all day, this is how you operate and make your living.
It’s just so fascinating, and really amazing. I think that the juxtaposition between the having structure and discipline around creativity, there’s things that we could do that can spurn creativity or creativity, there’s systems that we could put in play and practice and at the same time there’s this random like magical mystical thing about it that probably is where like the most juice comes from.
I’m a huge Seinfeld fan, right? And so I’m like, how much fun do they have creating that show and how much of that was planned and how much of it came up in the moment from your experience, like when magic happens, that’s a spurn from creativity. Is it a combination of both? Does most of it happen in the randomness?
Gil: I think it really is a quite a mix of the two things, because the structure always helps, you usually if you’re writing a script, you really do need a structure. You have to think of a classic like there’s that the hero’s journey, for example. Where most stories follow the same exact patterns, but within the confines of that structure, there’s still so much to play with.
So I think it would be total chaos if you didn’t have any type of structure at all. And you have to have some sort of common language to collaborate with people. So there’s always parameters like I always find, I’ve worked in many writers rooms over the past 20 years. And every show is a little bit different, but you always have a clear objective.
You always, you have a show that you’re producing later that day. You have limited resources. You need to make the host happy, guests you have to make happy, you have sponsors. So you, within these parameters, then you’re playing with it and you’re figuring out, okay, well, what can we do with this celebrity?
What would be a little bit different? What would be a fun little twist? So I know like even a show like Seinfeld, which, heavily influenced obviously by Larry David. And if you watch curb you see how formulaic, even a lot of the story structure is, there is a lot of structure to it but I think the magic happens it’s that spark even the idea for Seinfeld.
came when Larry David and Seinfeld were in a Chinese restaurant, just kind of riffing and they’re like, this is what the show should be. They wanted to show the original intent of the show was what’s the magic behind where standup comedy comes from. And I find from hanging out with other comedy writers, we love nothing more than just to riff all day long.
That’s all we want to do is, and that’s basically ideating, but on a silly, playful level, but yet there is an intelligence to it. It’s, so I do think it’s a great blend between, structure and chaos.
Lauren: I love that. And so much. I mean, what you’re saying is we’re also like setting ourselves up for success in the best way we can, which is a lot of what we can control, right?
You like these sparks come, these insights come, and we can’t always like control them. We’re just optimizing ourselves, right? Writing prompts before bed, capturing things as they come, walking in Costco, walking in nature, right? Our environment matters. So much of what you’re speaking to is like, what is our state of mind and our state of being like, how can we set ourselves up to have that creative process?
-: Right, same
Lauren: idea of like shower thoughts or when I was on a run.
Right. Today you said this idea of playfulness, right? We have an objective, but we’re also willing to be light and open minded. You also talked about not being attached to ideas. There’s non attachment, which is also a kind of a state of mind and being.
Could you share a little bit more about that?
Gil: Sure. Yeah. I think, part of the, you want to unlock on, you’re trying to tap into all this creative energy. So I think the ego can really be a major block to creativity, especially in collaboration, because if you’re worried just about credit and or you’re scared to share ideas, you’re trying to protect your ego.
So you’re afraid to share ideas that really impedes the creative process. It’s a lot about being in flow. And so it takes, On the group level, I think it takes a lot of trust. You have to feel among a group that there’s a level of, support that you can share a half baked idea. Because what I’ve seen many, many times is often it’s the craziest idea that somebody probably would have been scared to share that then evolves and turns into something incredibly powerful.
In improv, they have that technique where will say something crazy, but the technique is yes, and. So they don’t fight against it. They go, oh, yes, and they add and we’re going to Mars and then we’re doing this. So it’s if you’re able to elevate other people’s ideas, even if they don’t end up ultimately going somewhere,
Gil: that creative spirit, that’s the kind of environment you need to harness all the creativity in a group, and there’s a lot of synergy. And on an individual level, you need that to, you need to allow yourself to, not every idea has to get used, so it’s okay to come up with a thousand ideas to only use the best 10.
There’s no, I think high volume leads to high quality. And to get to the high volume, you have to turn on the faucet and let it flow, even if it’s not the best. A lot of the ideas sometimes there are plenty of terrible ideas I’ve heard I’ve said, and so you have to allow yourself permission to sometimes go through those bad ideas.
Todd: I just inspired hearing you and everything just rings true. And by the way, I’ve dabbled in improv and the whole yes, and when I first learned about that and improv, it’s like anything that happens is a yes, like you never fight existing reality. And when I first heard that, I was like, what a life lesson, what about going through life where you’re just accepting every single thing that happens and you’re just moving forward in it.
It really is probably at the core of all the personal growth and development work that we do as well. And so you work in a creative space, right? So you are constantly thinking about this. And I love the part about collaboration. Because I think one of the things that, we’re thinking about, because we’re not all working in a creative space, we have people that follow us that are doctors, we have people that, work in a company, in finance, in banks, right?
And can we learn to infuse This more fearless attitude of experimentation and lightness and playfulness, right? And how do we start to infuse this notion that, oh, we can help elevate other people. I know that’s a big part for you about creativity is that it’s not just about your creativity coming out.
It’s also about looking at the group that you’re in and thinking that how can I elevate them to be more creative? How can I get them to be lighter and funnier? And there’s something in that. So I’m wondering, like, how do you talk to people that aren’t in your space, per se, and guide them and if you have any ideas about how to be more fearless and how to experiment and how to embody this more light, playful attitude, which we know intuitively always does win.
Gil: Yes. Yeah. I think everybody has their own kind of creativity. When I worked on, talk shows like the Ellen show, there’s a collaboration within different departments. And there’s different types of thinking, so sometimes we come up with a silly idea and not know how to execute it as a writer, but then there’s this props department that’s talented and they know mechanically they might have ideas that you never would think of, or the wardrobe department, or somebody who works in say casting, and you, and so if you can harness everyone’s, everyone has their own superpowers, basically.
And I think by bringing out the best in the group, and I think what’s key inside a writer’s room, what makes it really work is we feel we’re on the same level. The meetings weren’t as creative when the top bosses are there and you’re under pressure that kind of pressure doesn’t always bring out the best creative, because people are afraid to share the crazier ideas, and that’s often the magic the spark is often the idea that came out of left field.
So I think you need that level of psychological safety were at first during the idea stage, you’re not worried fully about the end goal. You have to know your objective, but allow a sort of looseness at the beginning stages of ideas before you filter them. So I think any group could have that as long as there’s this shared camaraderie and support that sort of like yes, and mentality, and then knowing later, look, we’re going to filter these ideas and we’re going to do what’s best for the project.
The best idea is going to win. But to get that spark and that magic, I think you do need to take a little risk, and that needs support psychological safety.
Lauren: That’s so true. That’s such a big unlock to any, , it could be a marriage, any relationship, a team. Everyone on that team feels safe and supported.
Like, I can say or do anything without judgment. It’ll be received, and then we’ll work with it. , which is great. I also love what you said about Yes, and I happened to be at an event a few months ago with, uh, George Carlin, the comedian’s daughter.
Gil: Oh, wow.
Lauren: Yeah. And she was saying she learned to live her life from Yes, and so whatever happened to her, she would act as if she had chosen it. So she was saying like, she’ll be in rush hour LA traffic, and she’ll say yes, and Right, because it just, it gets us in that more playful state. It’s,
Gil: yes, and I wanna get the hell outta here.
Lauren: This is, yeah. Get me outta here. But like having a fight with her partner, whatever would happen in life.
She’s like, yes, and the and, like, where do we go from here to just, you know, had taught it asked, how do we get ourselves in that more optimal state? And so I was playing with that recently. I have a situation and I’m like, Oh, like it actually frees up a lot of energy. Um, and I also liked what you were saying about the early part of the process when we spoke yesterday, you were saying like, often a lot of us want to get to like execution and getting it done, but you talked about really the roots of, of, of the idea and where it goes. Like we can bypass or not spend enough time in the early idea generation stages.
Can you say a little bit more about that?
Gil: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s so key because Of the entire process, maybe the idea is 1 percent and execution is 99%. But if that 1 percent isn’t great, it doesn’t matter how flawlessly you execute, the end result is not going to be the best it could have been. And if you look, in the showbiz level, if you look at a movie, You could see movies that have the greatest actors in it, greatest director and cinematographer, then you see the movie and it wasn’t a great movie.
That’s because the idea was not great. The idea is the blueprint. I think often it’s a process that gets rushed because everyone wants to just check all these boxes and say, hey, we signed off on the idea. Let’s move on to the next stage. But I think you have to allow space and creativity exists by allowing space for it.
And I would recommend figuring out what the real deadline is. I always have this, often in my personal life, it’s the same thing because my wife will want to, approve things like, let’s say, can you say yes to this yet? Say yes to that. And I’m always like, let me sleep on it.
And often you don’t know yet. And you have to allow space. Is this the real deadline? Do we have to know today or can we wait till Friday? Because things evolve. So I encourage people not to rush the idea stage, because you do need room to let it grow and pick the best one.
Todd: Yeah.
And, I can just back that up. So I, if you can’t tell by listening, I’m like obsessed with comedy. Okay. Like everything about it, even when I started my career in sales, I started to get standup comedy training in New York when I was like in my early twenties. And the reason why is because so you go to a comedy show, I have so much respect that somebody gets up there. And how hard is that they need to like elicit a very specific response to an audience of laughter, which is a hard thing to get people to do, and people are expecting to do it right. So when you see a successful comedian, it’s pretty mind blowing that they’re able to actually do that.
And then you when I learned later on that, the greatest standard routines are like literally verbatim, like, Chris Rock, like that is pre written. Like he’s basically saying the standup routine over and over again, but it came from so much buildup of exploration and I’ll never forget.
And this is a lead into the next question. But in 1999, I was in a small comedy club in San Francisco and we were just watching it, me and my buddy. And all of a sudden, Robin Williams walks in and then the guy goes, guys, we’ve got a special treat tonight. The great Robin Williams is here. And we were like oh my God, there was like 20 people in this small little comedy and Robin Williams gets up and for 45 minutes just speaks gibberish on the stage. I thought we were going to be laughing. We weren’t laughing. I didn’t even know what he was doing. Okay. It was just like a bunch of gibberish and there and that.
That was his exploration. Right, Gil? Like, he was literally testing, exploring ideas, seeing what worked. He’s an artist, right? He’s thinking about he’s testing ideas and seeing the reaction. And then of course he’s using that and finding the gems and the diamonds to then go and create his next stand up routine.
And I think that there’s such learning in that from your career path of what you guys do is that it is a lot of ideas, a lot of brainstorming. Until we go ahead and we get the gem. So I’m just curious about your reaction to everything I just shared there. I saw you nodding your head a lot.
Gil: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, I’ve seen that many, many times. I mean, I actually saw Chris Rock do that, uh, at a comedy club in LA, and he was literally testing jokes. It was before the Oscars. But then he, he had just gotten divorced and he was testing very raw jokes, and it’s always cool to see behind the scenes when you know something is just developing and at the early stages because stand up becomes very polished.
I like to do stand up comedy, but I don’t I’m not as obsessed with it because I like to just keep coming up with new and new stuff. And to be a real, a real comic has to do a polished act, and that, that’s the part that bores me. is doing the same verbatim. But that’s what they’re crafting.
And it becomes like Seinfeld is trying to find the perfect joke, the exact words, the exact rhythm, and, and so there is a lot of, um, science to it as well. And the timing, and it’s extremely, it’s very much an iterative process. You know, you go out, you test jokes. I test jokes all the time on people on an individual level.
I will call friends and family, and I keep tweaking it. I go, okay, it wasn’t quite right. I didn’t set it up the right way. That’s not, that’s not the best reference. They’re not visualizing it. There’s so many aspects for a joke to land. And part of the fun of it is tinkering. So it is that playfulness of trying to figure out what’s the exact right formula.
Todd: And I totally invite you by the way, to tinker here live with us on a podcast recording, it doesn’t have to be calling family and friends, just seeding it, just seeding it. I know Lauren has got another question. I’m just, just, just seeding that. Cause you know, we’ve got a, we’ve got a professional, everyone’s laughing.
We’ve got a comedian on the line.
Gil: I have very raw stuff. Like I said, I have that file. That’s just random. And like, I’ll come up with like the basis of a joke. So I could, I could give you an example. I could like flip through and go, you know, and it’d be very raw, you know, it’s not a fully crafted joke at all, but if you want, I can do some of that.
Yeah. You’re one right now. Come on. Right. We’re here. We’re in the front. Let me see. Let me, let me look, uh, let me pull up my random Google doc here. See what I have for you here. I have no idea. Okay, so this goes, it’s very random. This goes off the joke of, um, I had this joke in my standup about I’m not good at fixing things.
I think the problem is that, uh, my dad is. But he never taught me. I would just hold stuff for him. He would when he fixed stuff, I would just hold stuff. So now as an adult, I’m just very good at just holding things. And when something breaks, that’s all I know how to do. I’m like, does it does this do anything if I hold this?
So I realized along the same lines the other day, my car had an issue with my car. And all I did was open the hood. I realized I can’t do anything. I just know how to open the hood and look. And go, okay, yep, it all checks out and close it. So I wrote that down as an observation of, maybe I’ll, that could be something I craft into something for standup.
Um, I love it. I mean, this is the oddest thought. So I don’t even know if I should share it, but like, I, I, I was joking around with my daughters. I don’t know why I thought this. They were, we had just hung out with a few different twins. And I was thinking about how, as a kid, I knew somebody who was a sibling who had three, there were triplets.
So there were three, there were triplets and then another kid. And I thought how weird that would be to be the one who’s not among the triplets, like sitting at dinner and just this group of three, just glaring at you. It’d feel like a horror movie to me. So. You know, this is our random, some of the stuff I put down.
Todd: You and I can riff on that. Cause I mean, if people knew what was going through my head, sometimes I’m always sitting there like thinking these really weird thoughts and I have to, and we all are too, by the way, that’s the thing about it.
Aren’t we all just like kind of thinking these weird thoughts like in our own little world and, you know, and it’s nice to have it an outlet for them. And I just resonated when you’re talking about the whole thing, because I have to be honest with you, I’m the same way. And I married somebody who’s really good at fixing things.
So my wife can fix anything, you know, I’m the holder. Right. And it’s like, I mean, if be honest, like sometimes it’s like a masculinity, she’s like with a screw in the best and hey, you got that? I’m like, Oh my God. Like, so I, I know. I know that feeling well. Absolutely.
Lauren: I love what you’re saying too, just as a metaphor for life.
It’s like we all have this like raw potential. There’s like an insight or an idea or a spark, right? And then how do you refine and cultivate that? And so that’s exactly, you know, and we watch Ellen or Larry David and like they have these random thoughts, like Todd said. And then you go out in the world and then you test them, you tell a friend or a family member, then you’re at a small comedy club and you keep getting better and better.
And then you have your Netflix special and they’re like, that’s genius. That’s so good.
Gil: It gets to that point. Yeah. And sometimes these ideas, you don’t know how you want to execute them. So sometimes it’s oh, that could be a whole movie. And another times like that’s just a one off joke, or that could be a really funny, you know, video that, you know, so it’s also part of the creative process to see where it grows up and what it becomes.
Lauren: And even, you know, even for me, I mean, I started in, I mentioned this on another episode, but I started in law school and then I had the idea of, oh, maybe I want to be a coach, right? It was just a spark, like an interesting observation. And then this idea of, let me share it with different people. Let me practice.
Let me do this. Right. Let me take a class. Like it really just started building. And then all of a sudden, like it takes a life of its own and I refined it and got better over time. So this idea that it could be a spark for a career. Maybe you want to be someone who’s amazing with. You know, difficult conversations or something with your spouse or your kids.
Like you just want to get good at something and you have an impulse. And then you start refining it and massaging it and working it out and working that muscle. Because we see this all the time in coaching, right? That’s, that’s the personal growth journey where you have an impulse and then you work it out and massage it.
So six months, a year later, you’re an entirely different person, right? You have your net, the Netflix special version of your career or marriage or whatever it is. So it’s just, I love seeing the creative process for a joke is very similar to the creative process for life ’cause life is a craft, right?
Life is a creative,
Gil: absolutely. I know. I didn’t even bother trying to predict beyond six months or a year, you know, things. Yeah. I love about
Todd: it. Gil, you know what it is? I’m just tapping into this right now, you know, is, is the non-attachment piece, right? I there, there’s such an energetic of exploration. In the creative process, right, that I think we can lose in the seriousness of our lives, you know, in our work, our money, our families, like so much seriousness, but like your whole world is like living in this, like, Oh, I’m not attached to that.
I’m experimenting. I’m not attached to that. I’m experimenting. I’m observing. I’m experimenting. And then I’m honing, right? It feels like that is at the core of what you do. Is that correct?
Gil: Yeah, I think that’s pretty accurate. Yeah, because I’ve seen, um, you know, how much things change and, and the worst thing you can do is be so attached.
I’ve seen a lot of writers get very frustrated because they’re so attached to an idea. And then when it gets changed, or it doesn’t happen. They, it’s devastating, you know, and, and the times I’ve been attached. To ideas or or events. It also is very hard. I think I don’t know. It’s a much better way of being, uh, to just realize you’re all we’re all kind of in this together.
We’re all collaborating. And it’s not about whose idea makes it onto the show. It’s about let’s just See how we can elevate whatever we’re doing. Let’s see how we can take it to a new level and see where it leads and not feel it has to be my way or anyone else’s way. It’s this beautiful blend of ideas.
Lauren: I’m so curious. How do you do you apply this in your personal life, like in your marriage with your kids? How does this mindset play out or state of being?
Gil: Uh, yeah, I mean, I don’t have too much attachment to the I’ve pointed out to my wife many times how we’ve evolved. There’s many things. I think so much correlates with just a level of openness.
And I’m, I’m more on the openness scale and I’ve seen over time how I’ve little by little been able to get a little more openness from from my wife about things we debate to, she always jokes that there’s a lag from when I try something, and then she’ll try it like a year later, there’s a lot of things I’ve experimented with in my life, like for example, Something like intermittent fasting or just other random practices I’ve adopted.
And at first there’s a lot of resistance. And then eventually, like we, I think, um, in, in personal life, just the more you can have open dialogue and be willing to change. I’ve changed my views on many things over my life. You know, I’ve, I’ve had friends convince me wildly different perspectives. And I think that’s enriched my life.
I find a lot of the value in diverse opinions and being a part of different perspectives has made my life much better. So I’m always happy for somebody to challenge my views and to get me to see things differently. And I, yeah, I think it makes life exciting.
Todd: Yeah, and I will say on that, I mean, and again, I’m going to go out on a limb and say something that might be pretty strong, but in my experience of coaching and working with people directly for so many years, two decades, right, Lauren as well, it’s in, we typically have these areas in our lives where we don’t have that flexibility, like where we do have some element of, of stuckness, you know, it could be in a certain particular part of our lives could be just like in our work. It’s like, we just have a certain way of like going about it, or it could be in our relationships, our expectations, you know, about what a relationship should be. And like, we have this and, or it could be in our physical health and we just have to do certain things a certain way, but we then also have these other areas where we naturally flow, right.
And, and we’re naturally embodying what you’re sharing here, which is kind of like this very non attached kind of flowy, open minded curiosity, you know, experimentation energy between it. And I think that’s the beauty of this conversation is the question of, you know, how do we constantly get ourselves in that more flexible mindset, right?
You know, in that more curious mindset, because it feels like curiosity is that very much at the heart of the way that you live, right, and the way that you kind of work as well. It’s like a very curious exploration. I’ve always felt, Gil, that there’s a real relationship between comedy and personal development and coaching, what I do.
I’ve always just like felt a real resonance between it. And I love this conversation because I feel like I’m getting some more answers as to why that is. Um, do you ever teach that stuff? Like you ever like, I mean, go out and try to spread this, this, these tenants of comedy into other people’s lives outside of comedy.
I mean, has anyone ever done that? Like trying to take you know, kind of the mindset of a comedian or a writer and apply it to these other areas. I mean, have you ever heard of that or done it yourself?
Gil: It, it’s, it’s something I’m very interested to explore and, and to do. ’cause I do see a lot of application for, um, on the individual and, and group organizational level.
I just see a lot of potential benefits. I actually, you know, years ago, before I moved to LA and pursued comedy writing, I did an MBA program and I had to do a, uh, a thesis. So I chose to do humor in the workplace and it was really just an excuse for me to do something comedic. When I was in business school, the whole time, every presentation I had, I was trying to turn it into like a, an SNL sketch.
And I always wanted to do comedy, but I also was really fascinated, I love human behavior and psychology is always fascinated me. So I did a thesis on humor in the workplace. And then I did a case study on Comedy Central’s corporate headquarters. And they let me they were super kind they let me be a fly on the wall.
And I observed all their meetings. In fact, I actually found I found my old thesis, and I, so I had all this. Study of what is comedy, what is humor and all the different types. And then I was very curious how to apply it. This is really more in a business context, but I think in a, in a personal, you know, in terms of psychology, I find it really valuable.
I don’t think I’m wired as the typical comedy writer. I’ve worked with many, many different comedy writers. And they’ll always say I’m abnormally positive upbeat, you know, it would be a running joke I would sometimes it’d be very I’d make very dark jokes about it because they would make a game out of, how can you find the positive in any situation and, but I think that the kind of the whole mentality of being playful, not taking anything too seriously, and being willing to just, just to listen and explore all possibilities is hugely valuable in your personal life. And that doesn’t mean I’m, I’m what you said, Todd really resonated because I know there’s areas in my life where I feel stuck.
It’s not like I have that ability to tap into it 24/7, even though I want to. But I know there’s also ways to prime that and to, I don’t think people use it nearly enough. Not like, they’re just barely scratching the surface. I
Todd: love it’s like, um, people say in my world, I’m almost too optimistic. It’s like, okay, 13 Emmy awards.
I’m very positive. I always see the bright side. 13 Emmys. I’ve been the lead writer for the Ellen. You’ve had a very high level of success right in your field. And so I think it’s not. Random, you know, that the way that you orient to things is in a very positive, optimistic way. Sorry, Lauren, I knew you were going to.
I
Lauren: was going to say, you know, Todd and I lead a lot of workshops as well. And we’ll often play a video of Shawn Achor Ted talk. He’s from Harvard and he studied what do a lot of the most successful people have in common. And he found that when we’re in a positive state of mind, we’re much more, we’re smarter, we’re more productive, we’re more efficient, we’re more creative.
He compared that to people who are negative, neutral, or stressed. And so having a positive mindset does make you more creative. It does make you smarter. It does create better outcomes. He was salespeople sell more doctors, make better diagnoses, right? So what you’re saying, I mean, it’s really so important.
It’s like being positive, being open, being curious. Uh, we interviewed, um, an astronaut recently and so, and he was saying like, that’s his secret to success. This like curious, open mind, this non attachment, it didn’t work, but what’s next and keep going, you know? So part of this podcast, we’re hoping that our audience really does see these themes.
Right across the board from an astronaut to a comedy writer. It’s like, you’re actually doing the same things to have the success that you have. So that just makes me so happy when we keep hearing the same things over and over again. One final question is again. You’ve worked with really some phenomenal people. Some like singers, musicians, comedians. Is there someone that really stands out for you that you just really like admire? There’s something about them that you could share with us that you thought was really special.
Gil: Um, you know, I mean, I’ve, I have worked with a lot of different, you know, talented people and a lot of them are celebrities. Um, but ultimately, you know that my most, most intimate kind of work I do is with fellow writers. So, I mean, my, my most peak experiences despite you know it’s exciting to work with different hosts and they’re all really talented but it’s the, it’s the writers that your guys like you’re in the trenches with.
That’s by far, you know, the most enriching, you know, part of the job. And, and really it’s kind of just the icing on the cake when you see the work done, you know, like when you see Ellen deliver a joke you wrore and it, and it does great in the audience, it crushes and the audience loves it. It’s a real, it’s an incredible high to have those moments.
And it was always one thing that was really special about the Ellen show. Um, was the last few seasons, there were all these guests hosts. So it was really, it was exciting just to the variety, you know, to have somebody who’s a musician come in and they had to then deliver a monologue and do stuff that’s a little bit out of their wheelhouse.
But then other times you have really seasoned actors come on. And so it was the variety more than any one particular, you know, experience. It was, I just felt very lucky to be in that environment. And all I, all I’ve ever want to do is just to be a creative people and to riff and play and have fun. So it’s the whole experience that that’s special.
Lauren: So this commonality of your peak experiences really being from being around a group of people who are just like open and playing and you’re building off each other. There’s really an energy to it. So whenever we can have that energy in ourselves and with each other, it’s like that’s when you come up with.
Gil: It’s it amplifies. So it’s exciting. One on one is exciting, too. But to be in a room with 10. And then there’s this thunderous laughter when something you or someone else pitched. It’s very magical, because it’s, it feels spontaneous, you know, even though you’re primed for it, and you have a directive you’re trying to do, but It’s there’s these moments that are like, oh this is, this is a great, like, like, I’m can’t believe I’m getting paid to do this.
Not that there’s not so many things that are very hard about the job, but those moments, you’re like, Oh, I’d rather be doing this and pretty much anything. I
Todd: mean, what, what, that’s the best feeling in the world right and that that’s the, the feeling of the flow. Um, you know, that, that we always want. So we, we, we asked one last question that we’d like to ask.
We’re almost at time here. And then for those of you on the live call, if you want to ask a question, you know, like feel free, you know, we have about 10 more minutes here with Gil. By the way, this is awesome, right? Uh, really fun, inspiring. I feel light. I feel like there’s a lot of creativity flowing, uh, just in the conversation.
What about advice to your younger self? We love to ask people that come on here. If you were to kind of go back in time and have a conversation with yourself when you’re maybe 14, 15, 16, that age, what would you say, um, you know, to get yourself on the path even stronger?
Gil: It’s really, yeah, I mean, that’s a really It’s a, it’s an interesting question because the choices you make kind of lead you to where you are now.
And if I knew, you know, then what I know now, I, for example, I went and studied political science at, as an undergrad, because I had a in high school there was a professor who taught us a class and it just blew my mind because it was such a different level than any high school class I took and that really changed my trajectory.
And I never thought about entertainment other than when I was in high school. I would, I would, you know, I would make everything as funny as I could, but I never had this idea. Oh, I could maybe be a comedy writer. So I don’t know how, I feel I was exposed to a lot of different ideas because I didn’t know to pursue comedy writing.
And I think it’s also enriched my life. I think the main thing I would want to tell my younger self, it’s not so much the importance of, you know, what decisions you make, but the state of mind and being, you know, you put yourself under so much pressure and, you know, it can cause a lot of anxiety. So I think you know, whatever it is you’re doing in life, you want to enjoy it. You want to be on the level of enthusiasm, enjoyment. It doesn’t really matter. Like, I feel like, and I’ve talked about this with other people in entertainment industry. It’s so random where you end up. It’s not like I had some, I had a loose idea of what I wanted to do.
I knew I wanted to write comedy and make people laugh. But it could have been on a sitcom. It could have been trying to write funny commercials. It could have been many different things. Ultimately, it’s more about the, the, just the joy of what you’re in the moment, what you’re doing. It’s not like I’m not, it’s not about the attachment to a particular show or any of that.
It’s really, you know, you want to go through your life having these peak experiences where you’re enjoying what you’re doing. And so I think I’d probably tell my younger self not to put so much pressure and just ease up and enjoy and let things evolve.
Lauren: True wisdom right there.
Todd: Very aligned with us. So guys, we are really at time, but we’re going to stick around for a couple of minutes. By the way, if you’re listening to this, Subscribe to Untapped. We’re having fun on these conversations and bringing really enlightening people that have new ideas about how to release and activate our hidden potential, our purpose, the things that, you know, we’re really here to do.
And just as Gil said, so everything, what you just said, Gil is really resonant with what our mission here is. So we really appreciate your wisdom and your insightfulness and, um, your clarity around, uh, you know, kind of what, what is comedy and how to bring it in. So thank you officially for being here,
Gil: Thank you. It’s been a lot of fun. Thank you for inviting me and good luck with all your projects, all your endeavors, what all the pursuits you’re doing.
